Thursday, December 15, 2011

Necron Comp List @ 1850

So this is what I see as being the rather “standard” Necron mech list: maxed out barges running with MSU warriors + Arks. You can salt to taste with Wraiths + Destroyer Lord for counter assault, or go with more Blades and/or Heavy Destroyers if you what to emphasize anti-tank and a stand-off approach.

1 Overlord w/ Warscythe, T-Arrow [130]
1 Command Barge [80]

1 Destroyer Lord w/ Mindshack, Res Orb [175]

1 Cryptek w/ Harb. o’ Destruction, Lance, Solar Pulse [55]

3 Cryptek w/ Harb. o’ Destruction, Lance [105]

5 Necron Warriors [65]
1 Ghost Ark [115]
5 Necron Warriors [65]
1 Ghost Ark [115]
5 Necron Warriors [65]
1 Ghost Ark [115]
5 Necron Warriors [65]
1 Ghost Ark [115]

5 Tomb Blades w/ Particle Beamer x1 [110]

5 Canoptek Wraith w/ Particle Caster x 4, Whip Coils x 1 [205]

1 Annihilation Barge [90]
1 Annihilation Barge [90]
1 Annihilation Barge [90]

The list only has a reasonable 8 hulls, all of which will be starting off at AV13. This should allow you to pulse and move T1 and then survive whatever counter strike they can throw T2 if you are going second. Lances and the T-Arrow can help against pesky backfielders until you can get close enough to unleash the 3x barges and flayer arrays from the Arks.

Barge Lord and Dest. Lord + Wraiths should provide decent counter assault, but they should really just be there to draw your opponent away from your Annihilations and to tarpit things that try and break though to your warriors.

Best comp list the Necrons have? I wouldn’t go that far, but I would say that this could give a lot of the lists out there a good run for their money.


  1. I'm not sure if my posts are so poignant that they don't require responses, but I'll give it another shot for a response here.

    I like a few things about this list, I think it has a few issues, and I have some ideas for it.

    1. Not enough de-mech. 4xS8 will not win games against mech lists. awesome suppression, but 9-13 Av11-12, will not be fully suppressed in a given turn.

    2. 380pts for a dedicated CC unit with no protection, probably won't make it across the board. The fact that lord can take the insta-kill wounds is good until you think about the fact the lord won't get saves (consider sempiternal weave at least). Also wraiths are no longer 'Necrons' and don't get RP, so no need for Res Orb. Also points are wrong for lord (170pts).

    Consider Anrakyr in the barge, for an extra 30 pts he's got the same upgrades you have (T arrow and Warscythe), but can take over enemy shooting on a 3+, good anti-mech and psychologically effective.

    Not sure if you were thinking this or not, but in OBJ games you can have the Royal Court highjack one of the Ghost arks.

    If you swap for Anrakyr, consider building your Dedicated CC out of immortals (instead of Wraiths) in a High-Jacked Ghost Ark Like this:
    Necron Overlord [Warscythe, Mindshackle] 115
    2x Necron Lords [Warscythe] 90
    7x Immortals [Tesla Carbines] 119
    TOTAL = 324

    7x S5 Tesla @ 24"
    On The Assault 10xS7 PW + 14xS5 + Mindshackle

    VS your Wraith Unit
    On the Assault 4xS7 PW + 20xS6 rending + Mindshackle
    Definitely the immortals are superior, not to mention they have a 21" assault range (as compared to 18"of the wraiths) out of the open topped ghost arks.
    The only thing they have on this unit is ignoring Difficult terrain. But their weakness to S8 fire is bigger problem then having to take DT tests with immortals. It also gives you the versatility to decide not make a dedicated CC unit if you don't need one, meaning you can spread out the Warsythes into warriors units, who can assault suppressed tanks from Arks, if that's what you need instead, If your facing IG or Tau.

  2. It might be worth it in that immortal unit to take Obyron, because of WS 6 and xtra attack ability, in place of one of the Lords. You can add MS to the other lord, and now your dedicated assault unit can Veil, if needed, even out of combat if they get in over their heads. Awesome for Seize Ground.

  3. Obyron 160
    Necron Lord [Warscythe, Mindshackle] 60
    8x Immortals [Tesla Carbines] 136

    32 more points for 2 less S7 attacks + 1.111 Tesla Hits + WS6 + Mega-Veil

    Obyron, can be interesting, because one tactic, is if you are just assaulting a weak unit, say 6x Long fangs, you can gamble and have him solo it. Long fangs even without a fist should get raped)

    Obyron assualts
    LF gets w/counterattack 15 normal attacks + lets say 4 PW attacks
    7.5 hits + 2PW hits (9.5 misses) : 2.5 wounds + .667 PW wounds : unsaved wounds = 1.083
    Obyron gets 4 + 6 (special rule) attacks now : 6.666 hits : 5.555 unsaved wounds

    Not Bad. He will probably get shot down next turn, but a turn 5 nuke is good! 90% of units will not assault him on his lonesome, unless they have torrent attacks or more then one source of PW. It takes 36 MEq attacks to put one wound on him, and 6 MEq Power Weapon attacks. His biggest worry, Powerfists and Thunderhammers (insta-kills), are I1, yay!!! Combated squads beware! Either way its a good combo in immortals, in a turn 5 obj grab.

  4. You’re hitting me with a Gish Gallop here, but I’ll try and address some themes:

    Why on god’s green earth would you want to be assaulting things with Immortals, esp. in preference to more durable, rending wraiths? Immortals have I2, A1 and no access to CC weapons. The only reason you want to run them into combat is if you are trying to lure your opponent into an false sense of security by convincing him you’re not sure how the game works.

    But backing up a bit: Why are you spending so much time focusing on CC in the first place? CC sucks in 40k and Necrons suck at CC vis-à-vis the other codices. Sure, you might be able to come up with a nice CC combo with a character + wargear combo that kills MEQs on paper, but you’ll miss the forest for the trees in the process.

    Shooting is better. It is better because you can do it from T1 onward, because it doesn’t involve exposing your models to immediate counterattack, because the ‘threat radius’ of an assault will generally be smaller than that of shooting, because CC rarely offers AP1 which makes a significant difference in killing vehicles, and because only highly expensive troops can assault off of a deep strike. Just to name a few examples.

    To be sure, you could make a Necron list with 3X units of maxed out wraiths, with 3x Lynchguard, some C’tan and anything else that can smack marines in CC, and that list will be better than other comp lists – with regard to assaults. But focusing on this phase is not playing to the Necron strengths.

    In most Necron builds (such as the list from this post) CC units are distractions and buffers. I don’t actually expect the Wraiths to slay my opponent so much as to be in the way between them and something of mine they are trying to get to. Sure, if they leave a squad exposed the wraiths can gobble them up, but this is always a secondary concern. As I said before, wraiths are there to occupy my opponent’s attention and to keep the pressure off my barges and troops.

    We can discuss the pros/cons of gauss vs telsa if you like, as I think there is room for debate on that subject, but CC with Necrons is a non-starter.

  5. My Response:

    1. Why on god’s green earth would you want to be assaulting things with Immortals?

    Because the unit I put forward, Immortals + Lord + Overlord is statistically better in combat, can hold objectives, can assault 3" farther, and can shoot for an average of 9 Str 5 hits a turn.

    2. Why are you spending so much time focusing on CC in the first place?

    This unit does not rely on CC to be effective, yours does. The whole point of this recommendation is that your unit is ONLY CC, whereas my unit can do 2 other more important things, shoot and hold objectives. I appreciate your support for my argument tho.

    Your unit:
    375 Pts -> just close combat unit

    My unit:
    356 its -> better CC, Reliable STR 5 shooting, Takes objectives.

    That's what I call Triple-Duty, son!

    3. Shooting is better.

    It's important to note: my recommendations were to satisfy the aims of your lists, not mine. You seem desirous of a weak Dedicated assault unit, so I made you a better one, that is less of a waste of points.

    4. In most Necron builds (such as the list from this post) CC units are distractions and buffers.

    This is poor logic. It's like saying "my trick is to take bad units, get my opponent to focus on them, while my good units do work." Good players will not get 'tricked'. A better strategy is to just focus on your strengths from the get-go, and not spend 375 points on any distractions period. Let the Distractions and Buffers be things that are strengths also!!!

  6. Are Immortals more durable then Wraiths?

    Depends, if the immortals are inside a vehicle, then yes more durable. Wraiths will get exposed to shooting. In the current meta that shooting is likely to have much Str 8.

    For that purpose its better to think of wraiths as 1W, I know how easy Wraiths are to shoot down from torrent fire and from High str fire from playing Zoans, That unit will only survive because people choose to ignore in favor of more preferable units. 3++ is good on termies because its also protected from torrent fire by the 2+.

    However, Immortals are less then 1/2 the cost, and get Reanimation protocol, for 30 pts it can be improved to 4++, but generally immortals are 3+/5++, whereas wraiths are just -/3++, that's actually pretty significant in close combat.

    Wraiths are pretty weak overall, They are simply not good enough in close combat to be worth their points, if the had Power weapons, sure.

    How to use them:
    The only way way I would consider using wraiths, is 3x no upgrades for 105 pts.

    This unit, remains totally hidden in objective games until turn 4, at which point it comes out to thwart any assault attempts on my objective. If my objective is 100% safe then they can B-line it to my opponents. I've done this with Shrikes to some effect, definitely not comp, more for the player who wants to paint the model and needs a way to make it fit in his list.

  7. I'd like to add a couple of more broad points to the arguments I won here, to make my premise seem even more profound, awe-inspiring, and game-changing.

    1. 40k is not a close combat game, for ANY comp army. Sure, an army can be designed to be CC, and it may even win some games, but the system of 40k gives huge advantages to Shooting based play style. As for the Necrons, the fact that they don't have a good assault build just makes the obvious choice, MORE obvious.

    2. Does that mean that Close Combat is 100% futile in 40k? No. Close combat will happen, and all armies need to balance the cost to benefit ratio for their selection in preparation for that event. In my opinion their seems to be 3 clear types of useful close combat units.

    A. Expensive CC units: It's okay to have an expensive close combat unit, as long as it's role isn't ONLY close combat. A 400 pt Assault Terminator unit in a 255pt Land raider should do well in CC, but can it shoot? can it take objectives? What happens if your opponent Pops that land raider in in turn 1, foot slogging terminators sit out for 2-3 turns, that's what. It's a pretty big gamble to invest more then 10% of an army's value into a unit that can be rendered ineffective at the expense of 1 turn of shooting. Alternatively, a unit that can assault AND is troop choice, or can shoot can remain effective wether it's engaged in close combat or not.

    B. Army effecting CC - Some close combat units, more often then not HQs and Monstrous creatures can bring global effects to the game. Like the Swarmlord's ability to throw effects on neighboring units. or the C'Tan's abilities to make all difficult terrain dangerous, etc. If you purchase a Close Combat unit for an effect, be sure to utilize it's capabilities as a a Close combat unit also.

    C. Cheap CC - My favorite. These are the 90-150pt close combat units that normally become close to a unit trade in CC. 105 point 3 man wraith unit, or a 5 man 70pt gene stealer unit. These units are close combat assault support units. Correctly managed they can change the tide of a minor engagement, or impact the movement of units in proximity. Worst case scenario you don;t need them, and they hang loose in cover, enjoying the show.

    3. 40k is not WWE. There seems to be this notion of, if my opponent takes a dedicated close combat unit, then I better take a better one so that when they battle, mine will edge out victorious. SILLY. Even if you had the best close combat unit in the game, you are making a huge blunder if you use it to assault the opponent's Dedicated Close combat unit. Dedicated close Combat units should be assaulting units they can destroy EASILY, and more importantly act as defending anchors on forward objectives. Use guns to kill your opponent's dedicated close combat. Bad shooting never causes a fallback move, or worse yet a sweeping advance.

  8. How does this apply to the Necrons? In my mind mind the best close combat unit in the Necron army is the Necron Overlord. 1. you have to take him. 2. He really can only do three things; add survivability to units with Res Orb and wound allocation, add mobility to rapid fire units with phaeron, and close combat. As for his close combat ability, it's really pretty good, 3A @ S7, the WS 4 is is a good trade for S7. Mind Shackle Scarabs make him Considerably better given that the solution of using the 'mandatory' HQ as the dedicated CC is pretty much standard, Mindshackle has the capability to completely doubling-out most Comp armies's best close-combat unit. He can do well to support a unit of warriors or immortals.

    Let's look at how this factors into the selections I made for the Immortals unit above.
    A lot of people will say, "Damn, you have a 350pt CC unit in this list, that's really expensive for one unit" It's important to note, that the HQ is Mandatory, and does have to go somewhere. This is not the same as taking a 400pt unit of assault terminators. It's how best to make use of required HQ choice. In the above list, it's unnecessary because of the barge lord, but the case can be made for Necrons to have 2 lords to provide 2x royal courts, and double up on lances. Either way, in my suggestion I added 1-2 necron lords @ 45 a piece, this is another expensive addition to an already expensive unit. But, it's important to note that Lords get to pick their unit at the start of the game like overlords. If my opponent does not have any assault units, then why not spread these around to the ghost Ark warrior units and use them to assault mech left stunned and immobilized(means you auto-hit in CC) by gauss fire, or assault weak shooting units, or just to make opponents wary of Tank shocks. The point of this build is it's adaptability.

    Proffesor Eldritch if you seek tenure you might want to study this. lolz...